Syria Today (Syrie) : "Q&A: Mathews Phosa, Treasurer General of the African National Congress"

Q&A: Mathews Phosa, Treasurer General of the African National Congress

By John Dagge
Photo Carole al-Farah

Exile, guerrilla commander, activist, lawyer, politician, businessman, poet. South Africa’s Matthew Phosa has, at some stage, been all. Phosa, the current treasurer general of South Africa’s African National Congress (ANC), stands as a key figure in the country’s anti-apartheid struggle. After graduating from university, Phosa established South Africa’s first black-owned law practice in 1981. He worked as a partner until 1985 when he was forced into exile in Mozambique for his public political stands. While in exile Phosa underwent political and military training in former East Germany, after which he became the Regional Commander for Umkhonto we Sizwe (MK), the then military wing of the ANC in Mozambique. Phosa was one of four ANC members to enter South Africa from exile in 1990 to start negotiations with the white government to end apartheid. He also spearheaded Nelson Mandela’s reconciliation initiatives between the government and the Afrikaans-speaking community.

What brings you to Syria?

The focus of the trip is to explore areas of economic cooperation and it’s very clear to me we need to open up the two worlds, Africa and the Arab world, to each other. We have certain technologies which we could share with the Arab world in a wide range of economic activities.

Our banking sector is strong and has survived the global economic downturn very well. We are still working to create new banks. Once you have opened a bank in South Africa, you have opened a bank in Africa. The opportunities on the continent are endless.

We also have areas of potential cooperation in infrastructure development, whether it is railways, roads, airports or harbours. We can cooperate in the sharing of knowledge and capacities, working together with local Syrian companies. And there are examples; companies like Rainbow Chicken and MTN show that South African money can be invested successfully in Syria and run successful businesses which are of use to the population.

Engineering companies from South Africa have advanced know-how in technology, as have construction companies. A lot of experience has been built up over the years in South Africa. You must remember that South Africa, like Syria, was once under sanctions and that made us very creative in areas like oil and gas. We have come up with very advanced technologies and these technologies, grown under very difficult conditions, are now being put to use very successfully in places like Qatar.

What makes a good negotiator?

You need to understand not only your case, but also your opponent’s case. You should prepare your negotiation strategy based on your opponent’s concerns. That gives you an entry into creating a basis for a win-win solution. If you don’t understand your opponent’s case, you will always walk away in anger. You should try, as far as possible, to develop consensus around difficult issues after having understood your opponent’s concerns. This is ethical, this is principled, and it is not humiliating to you as a negotiator. Try to make a win-win environment by building as much consensus as possible.

The whole South African political miracle is based on consensus. Once you have built consensus around the concerns on the table, you are able to build trust. If there is no trust, there will not be a settlement. People will keep walking away from the table. A wise negotiator must understand those basics.

If you are going to negotiate on the basis that you are going to humiliate your enemy, you will never achieve success. If you are going to negotiate on the basis that it is only your interests that matter, you are wrong. The interests of your opponent also matter. These were the things we learnt from Mandela and from Sisulu [key anti-apartheid activist Walter Sisulu]. They were guiding spirits during the negotiations. We were young commanders from the army; very angry and agitated and wanting to fight. But they told us it is not our arms that will solve the problem; it’s peace. They used the expression ‘you must impose peace on violence’. Once you have imposed peace on violence, the violent people are forced to put away their guns. We understood as negotiators that we had to impose peace on the situation.

I will give you an example: on the day before the election in 1994, the highest number of bombs exploded in our country, killing and injuring people. Those who believed in violence thought that was the way to stop the democratic process. But they were overwhelmed the next day as people queued, the longest queues ever, black and white, Muslim and Christians, voting in a democratic process to give birth to a new South Africa. We achieved this firstly because of the goodwill of the people. Number two was because of good leadership on both sides of the divide. Mandela would not have found a solution by himself. He needed de Klerk [the last State President of apartheid South Africa Frederik Willem de Klerk] from the white government to bring white constituents into a settlement – that is a fact of life. We had the sunset clauses; literally confidence building measures. We shared the presidency. The first chief of the army was an Afrikaner because the army was predominantly white, so they still had to have confidence in their commanders. The first chief of police was white, because the majority of police were again white. We did these confidence building measures to make them buy into the settlement.

But you had to sell them to your party. Of course, when we went to our party and said we want de Klerk as vice president some members said: ‘Are you mad? Are you a traitor? Have you been drinking their tea?’ They couldn’t believe it. Now, of course, they know it was necessary to do it that way.

So clearly there are lessons the Middle East can learn from the South African experience?

We are not presumptuous on international issues, particularly where there is conflict. We understand very well that it is not easy to resolve some of these issues. But we think that every effort must be made to resolve whatever conflict exists in the world. We have been sharing our experiences throughout the world, in Northern Ireland, in Bolivia, in Sri Lanka, in Angola, in Mozambique. But there is no one country that is exactly the same as the other. There is no prescribed medicine for dealing with conflict. You always have local dynamics. You cannot take a South Africa solution and impose it on Israel and Palestine. But the principles, you can apply some of them.

It is estimated white South Africans still own around 80 percent of all land in South Africa. Some commentators have suggested this is evidence of an ongoing economic apartheid. What is your view?

It is true that original owners of South African lands have been dispossessed. But we must learn from the lessons of Africa. And what is the lesson? If you don’t regulate the process of land reform, it regulates itself in a violent and disorganised manner. In South Africa we have formed a land claims court which will decide these matters. We have set out a process and a set of procedures for people claiming their land and a way for them to prove that the land was theirs. The machinery and processes and procedures are being followed and everyone is being listened to. It has been slow. People have become frustrated. Some of the procedures have been flawed. The process is not perfect and we are trying to strengthen it. But what is important is that no one is taking the law into their own hands. No one. That won’t be allowed. We will never allow what happened in Zimbabwe to happen in South Africa. If you have a property you must know it will be protected. This creates certainty and stability in the economy. There has been fair treatment of land owners and claimants.


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